Herald interview with British Ambassador Wednesday, April 24, 2013
by Carolina Barros and Michael Soltys
Herald staff
John Freeman is the first British Ambassador to speak out on the bilateral relationship since 2009. Of course, the main question in this exclusive interview with the Herald is the Islands and the bilateral relationship that seems to concentrate exclusively on this issue. But the British envoy separates the Argentine people from their government, praising the former while saying “it is not entirely clear the policy here, where exactly it’s going on the question of the islands” — an indirect but clear reference to the Argentine government’s quixotic strategy for the South Atlantic. “The Falkland Islands is about people; it is not about rocks. It is about people’s right to lead lives as they wish to lead them” sums up his views as well as any statement on the “pebble in the shoe” (our words, not his), stressing that there are three parties to this issue: Great Britain, Argentina and crucially the islanders.
“It is a matter of disappointment that 31 years afterwards the rights of the islanders still don’t seem as recognized and secure as they might hope, in terms of determining their own future,” was his somewhat wistful conclusion.
Freeman was far more bullish about the trading relationship despite “challenges relating to degrees of protection, which obviously affect all countries, not particularly Britain” — a relationship “very much to Argentina’s benefit” where Britain also did very well with a far smaller fall last year than warranted by the general contraction in imports.
Last but not least, he hailed the advent of Pope Francis as “wonderful news for Argentina . That sense of a country feeling a lift, a lift internationally. Genuinely, I felt enormous warmth.”
You’ve been the British Ambassador to Argentina for 10 months, and in a very interesting time for the relationship between Latin America and the United Kingdom, after Foreign Secretary William Hague outlined the new “trade conquest” or “special relationship” with the region in a speech at Canning House, in November 2010. The Herald would like to know your views on this.
Ambassador John Freeman: That speech, which has had many references to it since, was addressed to the whole of Latin America, of which Argentina is a part. So we continue to hope that we can develop our relationships across Latin America on trade, investment, and in other aspects too. We are doing that by opening new missions: I am currently the ambassador to Paraguay. In the summer we will be opening a mission in Asunción, where a new ambassador has been appointed. The new missions are one of a number of examples of how we are increasing our footprints and extending our network in the region, which is a global player in the global economy. And we very much want to be a part of that success.
Regarding the trade and investment aspects, how are they going with Argentina?
The story of Argentina’s trading relationships is not only linked to Britain but to Argentina’s relationships on the economic and trade front with many countries. There are challenges in this market, challenges relating to degrees of protection, which obviously affect all countries, not particularly Britain. So insofar as all countries may be having variable patterns of performance here, it is partly a reflection of that. If you look at the statistics of Argentina in terms of growth, compared to other countries in Latin America, particularly when compared to the ones in the Pacific Alliance, Argentina’s growth pattern across the last couple of years has been less than might otherwise be expected. Many economists think Argentina’s economy is underperforming comparatively with others in the region, which annually have higher growth.
So how is Britain doing in this market?
Our trade is going on pretty well. In terms of trading, goods and services, we had something around £1.4 billion in 2012, taking both directions into account, of which 400 million is services, the rest is goods. On the goods side, Argentina has the advantage. In other words, this trading relationship is very much to Argentina’s benefit, as well as the UK’s. In the best kind of trading environment it is mutually advantageous to have trade, so no one is doing the other one a favour. It is helping to provide jobs here, and to provide jobs in Britain. It is helping to keep our economy going and to keep yours going in Argentina. We have not dipped that much, we did fall last year but one has to remember that the small fall registered in percentage terms is in a market that had contracted because a number of imports in the country had been reduced. It shouldn’t be a surprise that in a market situation in which a number of imports is diminished, the performance would be more challenged than otherwise might be the case. But all in all, it is doing pretty well.
So one third is going into services. What about the rest of the trade?
Top of the list would be medicines and pharmaceuticals exported from Britain. In Argentina’s case, by a much larger margin, animal foodstuffs, which is about 50 percent of the Argentine export figures to the UK. Could this grow more? Yes, it could and I hope it does for our mutual benefit. Again, I repeat, the trade balance benefits Argentina.
The pebble in the shoe that keeps on rattling is the Malvinas Islands. After the 30th anniversary in 2012 and the 180th anniversary in February, the referendum came along and then on top of that, Baroness Thatcher had to go and die to bring back memories. Where do you see it going?
Can I start the other way? I think it is important to try and get a sense of perspective. We have a bilateral relationship with Argentina which is rich and deep, in terms of historical ties and in terms of the wealth of contacts we have had in many years and still have. Bilateral relationships in the contemporary world are about people, at least as much as governments, and arguably more. People have their own relationships and they get on with their lives. And there are thousands of examples of these kind of relationships between Argentines and Brits.
I don’t know the statistics, or the number of people that have come from Britain to Argentina but I know how many Argentines go to Britain. From 2007 to 2011 the numbers have gone from 50,000 to 100,000. The number of Argentines studying in the UK has doubled as well: from 1,200 to 2,400. I think those numbers tell a story of their own. That has nothing to do with governments but with choices that people make about their lives.
You are stressing the friendliness of the people of both countries. And the islands?
Let me finish with this. It is about the friendliness of the people of both countries, that can be illustrated in so many other ways. If you look at the work the British Council has done, they have a programme of engagement with schools, students, teachers, assistance involving both Argentine and British students. We have had 6,000 students in these programmes in 2012. In the past 20 years, the Chevening programme has awarded 400 scholarships (to editors of newspapers, ambassadors, governors, Congress). This is about the vitality of the relationship.
When we look at the historical antecedents, such as the British Hospital, which has a very fine reputation, it is engaged in terms of assistance work in the province of Salta, providing medical assistance. I have been asked by some bilingual schools to speak there. I found that very flattering, that British education relates us.
Of course another key way in which links between Argentina and Britain, and in particular between Argentine and British people, are built is through sport. Last year we had the Olympics and already this year we have had an MCC cricket team visiting and playing here; this weekend we have the Federations Cup match between Great Britain and Argentina; and in June the England Rugby team will be visiting to play two games. I am really pleased that we are having so many sporting visits and fixtures between our two countries. I hope all concerned really enjoy the games and matches and that the best teams win!
British companies, some of them, have been here for a long time. Some of them for more than 90 years! These are very sizeable, it is not an easy environment, it is a very challenging environment for investments here.
So I would not start talking of the Falkland Islands as a pebble in my shoe. But however you characterize that, I wouldn’t start with my foot. I would look at the totality.
The Herald actually stole the “pebble in the shoe” line from ambassador Humphrey Maud, the first ambassador to Buenos Aires after the post-South Atlantic War diplomatic hiatus.
The Falklands: in a way, I think I will make a similar point. The Falkland Islands is about people; it is not about rocks. It is about people’s right to lead lives as they wish to lead them. As people in Argentina can: to live in peace, prosperity. It is about making their choices and leading their lives and having their home as an expression of their wishes, not somebody else’s wishes. They should be able to self-determine their own futures. And that is a very contemporary thought because it is protected under the UN Charter. But behind the idea of self determination, which is very well understood around the world, the people have a right to make their choice. It is not just about the rocks.
How would you define the issue?
In the case of the Islands there are three parties, Great Britain, Argentina and crucially the islanders. Only the islanders can determine their own future in that sense. And it is a matter of sadness that 31 years after the conflict that thankfully is long past, but very vivid in the memory of many islanders as it is, I’m sure, in the memory of many Argentines, because the tragedy is on both sides in terms of losses of lives and both dimensions which are deeply sad. But it is also a matter of disappointment that 31 years after that the rights of the islanders still don’t seem as recognized and secure as they might hope, in terms of determining their own future.
It is not entirely clear how policy here, where exactly is it going on the question of the islands. If the islanders have themselves demonstrated their views in a referendum — that they do want to do that (they have shown what they want to do about their future; they have gone incidentally around the region, and beyond, carrying the message of their conclusions, the referendum was observed by international observers, including citizens of Latin American countries) and they want that message to get out. I hope that that is not too much to ask, that their rights be respected. This is about people, above all.
You have a long record working in multilateral organizations, and especially in non-proliferation matters. How do regard Argentina in that sense?
I have had quite a long diplomatic career and have often worked alongside Argentine diplomats in my tasks, and so I have grown a very high regard about their capabilities in the diplomatic service. I would hope that those standards would continue to be upheld because we are talking about the relationship between Britain and Argentina in a number of international organizations where we sit with Argentina, whether in the G20, or in the next two years in the UN Security Council, and in other international organizations or meetings.
In my personal experience, in the past Argentina has always tried to have a very positive role in the issues of non-proliferation and issues of international responsibilities amongst the nations. Argentina has spoken up strongly always in these matters and I am sure we will be on the same side at the upcoming Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) review conference, in terms of objectives and sustaining the non-proliferation regime. I think it is the same with the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, where I also worked. Argentina was a co-signatory of the Arms Trade Treaty (Tlatelolco) with us — we have a similar view on that.
So there are many dimensions of the international agenda where historically Argentina and Britain have held similar views. When Argentina was asked to the Security Council in 2005, we were alongside in a number of issues, and we hope to be in the same place this time during Argentina’s period on the Security Council.
How do you like Argentina?
It is an enormous privilege to represent my country in this country. Because Argentina is a fascinating, huge, vital, very interesting, beautiful country with engaging and welcoming people. That has been my impression from my time here. I have been around a bit: been to Salta twice, was in Neuquén visiting Vaca Muerta, I have spent time in Mendoza, have been in Entre Ríos, Mar del Plata, Córdoba and Santa Fe. There is a lot more to see and revisit.
The most striking thing is the sheer variety. I have also visited the Welsh community. I have a Welsh grandfather and it is amazing, I went down to Chubut and met Welsh-speakers, people dancing in Welsh clothes, had Welsh teas (I am not sure you can get them in Wales). In 2015 the Welsh community in Chubut will celebrate 150 years, since its first arrival. And actually, in two weeks I am going to Wales to discuss with people about the ways of celebrating 2015 in Argentina.
The UK has offered aid after the recent floods in Buenos Aires.
In the recent floods, which are a human tragedy, we come back to the feelings between Argentine and British people, which are very warm. I was very keen and pleased that we have offered the province of Buenos Aires and the city as well to bring in experts and advise, modestly, to reflect together what can be done. It is not only a humanitarian act: I hope it shows the warmth. We have suffered a lot of floods in Britain and we have some degree of experience and expertise.
Have you met Alicia Castro?
No, we have not met. She arrived in London by the time I was leaving to come here, and we did try to meet, and genuinely our diaries did not coincide. I hope I will have the opportunity to do so in London: it is very usual for ambassadors in the reciprocal countries to meet.
by Carolina Barros and Michael Soltys
Herald staff
John Freeman is the first British Ambassador to speak out on the bilateral relationship since 2009. Of course, the main question in this exclusive interview with the Herald is the Islands and the bilateral relationship that seems to concentrate exclusively on this issue. But the British envoy separates the Argentine people from their government, praising the former while saying “it is not entirely clear the policy here, where exactly it’s going on the question of the islands” — an indirect but clear reference to the Argentine government’s quixotic strategy for the South Atlantic. “The Falkland Islands is about people; it is not about rocks. It is about people’s right to lead lives as they wish to lead them” sums up his views as well as any statement on the “pebble in the shoe” (our words, not his), stressing that there are three parties to this issue: Great Britain, Argentina and crucially the islanders.
“It is a matter of disappointment that 31 years afterwards the rights of the islanders still don’t seem as recognized and secure as they might hope, in terms of determining their own future,” was his somewhat wistful conclusion.
Freeman was far more bullish about the trading relationship despite “challenges relating to degrees of protection, which obviously affect all countries, not particularly Britain” — a relationship “very much to Argentina’s benefit” where Britain also did very well with a far smaller fall last year than warranted by the general contraction in imports.
Last but not least, he hailed the advent of Pope Francis as “wonderful news for Argentina . That sense of a country feeling a lift, a lift internationally. Genuinely, I felt enormous warmth.”
You’ve been the British Ambassador to Argentina for 10 months, and in a very interesting time for the relationship between Latin America and the United Kingdom, after Foreign Secretary William Hague outlined the new “trade conquest” or “special relationship” with the region in a speech at Canning House, in November 2010. The Herald would like to know your views on this.
Ambassador John Freeman: That speech, which has had many references to it since, was addressed to the whole of Latin America, of which Argentina is a part. So we continue to hope that we can develop our relationships across Latin America on trade, investment, and in other aspects too. We are doing that by opening new missions: I am currently the ambassador to Paraguay. In the summer we will be opening a mission in Asunción, where a new ambassador has been appointed. The new missions are one of a number of examples of how we are increasing our footprints and extending our network in the region, which is a global player in the global economy. And we very much want to be a part of that success.
Regarding the trade and investment aspects, how are they going with Argentina?
The story of Argentina’s trading relationships is not only linked to Britain but to Argentina’s relationships on the economic and trade front with many countries. There are challenges in this market, challenges relating to degrees of protection, which obviously affect all countries, not particularly Britain. So insofar as all countries may be having variable patterns of performance here, it is partly a reflection of that. If you look at the statistics of Argentina in terms of growth, compared to other countries in Latin America, particularly when compared to the ones in the Pacific Alliance, Argentina’s growth pattern across the last couple of years has been less than might otherwise be expected. Many economists think Argentina’s economy is underperforming comparatively with others in the region, which annually have higher growth.
So how is Britain doing in this market?
Our trade is going on pretty well. In terms of trading, goods and services, we had something around £1.4 billion in 2012, taking both directions into account, of which 400 million is services, the rest is goods. On the goods side, Argentina has the advantage. In other words, this trading relationship is very much to Argentina’s benefit, as well as the UK’s. In the best kind of trading environment it is mutually advantageous to have trade, so no one is doing the other one a favour. It is helping to provide jobs here, and to provide jobs in Britain. It is helping to keep our economy going and to keep yours going in Argentina. We have not dipped that much, we did fall last year but one has to remember that the small fall registered in percentage terms is in a market that had contracted because a number of imports in the country had been reduced. It shouldn’t be a surprise that in a market situation in which a number of imports is diminished, the performance would be more challenged than otherwise might be the case. But all in all, it is doing pretty well.
So one third is going into services. What about the rest of the trade?
Top of the list would be medicines and pharmaceuticals exported from Britain. In Argentina’s case, by a much larger margin, animal foodstuffs, which is about 50 percent of the Argentine export figures to the UK. Could this grow more? Yes, it could and I hope it does for our mutual benefit. Again, I repeat, the trade balance benefits Argentina.
The pebble in the shoe that keeps on rattling is the Malvinas Islands. After the 30th anniversary in 2012 and the 180th anniversary in February, the referendum came along and then on top of that, Baroness Thatcher had to go and die to bring back memories. Where do you see it going?
Can I start the other way? I think it is important to try and get a sense of perspective. We have a bilateral relationship with Argentina which is rich and deep, in terms of historical ties and in terms of the wealth of contacts we have had in many years and still have. Bilateral relationships in the contemporary world are about people, at least as much as governments, and arguably more. People have their own relationships and they get on with their lives. And there are thousands of examples of these kind of relationships between Argentines and Brits.
I don’t know the statistics, or the number of people that have come from Britain to Argentina but I know how many Argentines go to Britain. From 2007 to 2011 the numbers have gone from 50,000 to 100,000. The number of Argentines studying in the UK has doubled as well: from 1,200 to 2,400. I think those numbers tell a story of their own. That has nothing to do with governments but with choices that people make about their lives.
You are stressing the friendliness of the people of both countries. And the islands?
Let me finish with this. It is about the friendliness of the people of both countries, that can be illustrated in so many other ways. If you look at the work the British Council has done, they have a programme of engagement with schools, students, teachers, assistance involving both Argentine and British students. We have had 6,000 students in these programmes in 2012. In the past 20 years, the Chevening programme has awarded 400 scholarships (to editors of newspapers, ambassadors, governors, Congress). This is about the vitality of the relationship.
When we look at the historical antecedents, such as the British Hospital, which has a very fine reputation, it is engaged in terms of assistance work in the province of Salta, providing medical assistance. I have been asked by some bilingual schools to speak there. I found that very flattering, that British education relates us.
Of course another key way in which links between Argentina and Britain, and in particular between Argentine and British people, are built is through sport. Last year we had the Olympics and already this year we have had an MCC cricket team visiting and playing here; this weekend we have the Federations Cup match between Great Britain and Argentina; and in June the England Rugby team will be visiting to play two games. I am really pleased that we are having so many sporting visits and fixtures between our two countries. I hope all concerned really enjoy the games and matches and that the best teams win!
British companies, some of them, have been here for a long time. Some of them for more than 90 years! These are very sizeable, it is not an easy environment, it is a very challenging environment for investments here.
So I would not start talking of the Falkland Islands as a pebble in my shoe. But however you characterize that, I wouldn’t start with my foot. I would look at the totality.
The Herald actually stole the “pebble in the shoe” line from ambassador Humphrey Maud, the first ambassador to Buenos Aires after the post-South Atlantic War diplomatic hiatus.
The Falklands: in a way, I think I will make a similar point. The Falkland Islands is about people; it is not about rocks. It is about people’s right to lead lives as they wish to lead them. As people in Argentina can: to live in peace, prosperity. It is about making their choices and leading their lives and having their home as an expression of their wishes, not somebody else’s wishes. They should be able to self-determine their own futures. And that is a very contemporary thought because it is protected under the UN Charter. But behind the idea of self determination, which is very well understood around the world, the people have a right to make their choice. It is not just about the rocks.
How would you define the issue?
In the case of the Islands there are three parties, Great Britain, Argentina and crucially the islanders. Only the islanders can determine their own future in that sense. And it is a matter of sadness that 31 years after the conflict that thankfully is long past, but very vivid in the memory of many islanders as it is, I’m sure, in the memory of many Argentines, because the tragedy is on both sides in terms of losses of lives and both dimensions which are deeply sad. But it is also a matter of disappointment that 31 years after that the rights of the islanders still don’t seem as recognized and secure as they might hope, in terms of determining their own future.
It is not entirely clear how policy here, where exactly is it going on the question of the islands. If the islanders have themselves demonstrated their views in a referendum — that they do want to do that (they have shown what they want to do about their future; they have gone incidentally around the region, and beyond, carrying the message of their conclusions, the referendum was observed by international observers, including citizens of Latin American countries) and they want that message to get out. I hope that that is not too much to ask, that their rights be respected. This is about people, above all.
You have a long record working in multilateral organizations, and especially in non-proliferation matters. How do regard Argentina in that sense?
I have had quite a long diplomatic career and have often worked alongside Argentine diplomats in my tasks, and so I have grown a very high regard about their capabilities in the diplomatic service. I would hope that those standards would continue to be upheld because we are talking about the relationship between Britain and Argentina in a number of international organizations where we sit with Argentina, whether in the G20, or in the next two years in the UN Security Council, and in other international organizations or meetings.
In my personal experience, in the past Argentina has always tried to have a very positive role in the issues of non-proliferation and issues of international responsibilities amongst the nations. Argentina has spoken up strongly always in these matters and I am sure we will be on the same side at the upcoming Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) review conference, in terms of objectives and sustaining the non-proliferation regime. I think it is the same with the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, where I also worked. Argentina was a co-signatory of the Arms Trade Treaty (Tlatelolco) with us — we have a similar view on that.
So there are many dimensions of the international agenda where historically Argentina and Britain have held similar views. When Argentina was asked to the Security Council in 2005, we were alongside in a number of issues, and we hope to be in the same place this time during Argentina’s period on the Security Council.
How do you like Argentina?
It is an enormous privilege to represent my country in this country. Because Argentina is a fascinating, huge, vital, very interesting, beautiful country with engaging and welcoming people. That has been my impression from my time here. I have been around a bit: been to Salta twice, was in Neuquén visiting Vaca Muerta, I have spent time in Mendoza, have been in Entre Ríos, Mar del Plata, Córdoba and Santa Fe. There is a lot more to see and revisit.
The most striking thing is the sheer variety. I have also visited the Welsh community. I have a Welsh grandfather and it is amazing, I went down to Chubut and met Welsh-speakers, people dancing in Welsh clothes, had Welsh teas (I am not sure you can get them in Wales). In 2015 the Welsh community in Chubut will celebrate 150 years, since its first arrival. And actually, in two weeks I am going to Wales to discuss with people about the ways of celebrating 2015 in Argentina.
The UK has offered aid after the recent floods in Buenos Aires.
In the recent floods, which are a human tragedy, we come back to the feelings between Argentine and British people, which are very warm. I was very keen and pleased that we have offered the province of Buenos Aires and the city as well to bring in experts and advise, modestly, to reflect together what can be done. It is not only a humanitarian act: I hope it shows the warmth. We have suffered a lot of floods in Britain and we have some degree of experience and expertise.
Have you met Alicia Castro?
No, we have not met. She arrived in London by the time I was leaving to come here, and we did try to meet, and genuinely our diaries did not coincide. I hope I will have the opportunity to do so in London: it is very usual for ambassadors in the reciprocal countries to meet.
